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kohler employee discounts. ED VULLIAMY: Thank you. A morality tale for the 21st century, Official Secrets tells the true story of British Intelligence whistle-blower Katharine Gun who, during the immediate run-up to the 2003 Iraq invasion,. As well as illuminating Guns story, though, the film gives what was, by any standards, one of the great scoops of recent British journalism the credit that is long overdue. The classified email Gun got leaked to The Observer was evidence of the clandestine attempt of the American intelligence to reportedly seek help from the UK in wiretapping the members of the UN Security Council to motivate them to vote in favor of the invasion of Iraq. But he certainly was suggesting that people would know. The war did not end when George W. Bush said, Mission accomplished. It was only just beginning. ; Democrats Reintroduce, Mississippi Enacts Transgender Healthcare Ban for Youth Amid Spate of Anti-Trans Laws in Red States, Tennessee Gov. September 12, 2019 | 12:17 pm. And after about three weeks of this meeting these extraordinary people, I said to Jed, I think I think I would like to do this. And thats where the story came from. I do not gather intelligence so the government can lie to the British people., Sixteen years have passed since Katharine Gun said those words, but they still ring in the air. The memo was a top-secret request to monitor the private communication of UN delegates for scraps of information, personal or otherwise, that could be used to give the US an edge in leveraging support for the invasion. Don't let 'the intelligence and the facts be fixed around the policy' this time. AMY GOODMAN: So, the Daily Mail, very sympathetic also to President Trump. Details at membership.theguardian.com. AMY GOODMAN: And your feelings at that time, Katharine? Democracy Now! Film-makers generally like to glamorise newspaper offices, making them All the Presidents Men hothouses of high-level argument and intrigue. Shocked by the gall of such illegality, Katharine doesn't tell her husband, Yasar Gun (Adam Bakri) -- who's still going through the immigration process to stay in the country -- but instead goes to an anti-war associate who covertly gets said memo to Martin Bright (Matt Smith), a reporter for the pro-government paper The Observer. AMY GOODMAN: So, before the time of the trial, Katharine, youthey have clamped down on you. KATHARINE GUN: No, she hasnt. Just trying to figure out what to do next. Shes beginning to understand the issues, but she hasnt seen it yet, Gun said in 2019 when her daughter was 11-years-old. Katharine Gun leaked that memo to the Observer, in the belief that the revelation of the proposed bugging and blackmail tactics might be enough to stop the war. My marriage to my husband was very new at that juncture, and he had a very unstable status in the UK. gold coast shark attack video; giant schnauzer service dog for sale You have the U.S. in the longest war in U.S. history, in Afghanistan. But it may say more about the BBC than it does about him, that with this track record you can get to the top. The difference, I think, is that hereand your program and your viewers are testimony to thisyou have an opposition. MARTIN BRIGHT: No, it was the Tony Blair Faith Foundation. Gun had given a copy of the memo, with no supporting verification, to a friend of a friend who eventually brought it to the Observers investigative reporter Martin Bright. Katharine Gun (ne Harwood), 47, is married to Yasar Gn, a Turkish Kurd, with whom she has a 13-year old daughter. is katharine gun still married to yasarsandie and michael rinaldo. And so he went to Elizabeth and had a cup of tea, as you do in England. MARTIN BRIGHT: We didI tell you what, though, we did feel that we had failed. The online Drudge Report used the fact that the reproduced NSA memo used English spelling to cast doubt on its veracity. We rely on contributions from our viewers and listeners to do our work. - present) (1 child) So. [3], Katharine Harwood moved to Taiwan in 1977 with her parents, Paul and Jan Harwood. Yasur is a Turkish Kurd who is married to 47-year . Katharine Gun. He was Kurdishhe is Kurdish. Maybe there will be sympathy.. ED VULLIAMY: But my point is not against Mr. Ahmed. is katharine gun still married to yasar is katharine gun still married to yasar. This was all cooked up, unpublished and. MARTIN BRIGHT: Well, I wasof course, the irony of the situation is that when we heard that a GCHQ employee, a 27-year-old GCHQ employee, Mandarin translator, I think we even said at the time, had been arrested, we were absolutely delighted, because we knew for sure that we had a big story at that point. The bedroom is the heart of any romantic relationship and no bedroom should be without sound. AMY GOODMAN: Were you actually in the car with him, waiting for him to go in for his check-in? The official editorial line, led by the then editor Roger Alton (now an executive editor at the Daily Mail) and political editor Kamal Ahmed (now editorial director of BBC News) was in close support of the Blair governments position on the invasion. You know, banks of civil servants couldnt do that. I mention those lines about working for the people rather than the government. AMY GOODMAN: Well, explain that. [12] The Guardian newspaper had reported plans to drop the case the previous week. But that is unbelievably difficult now especially in the digital world.. Don't worry, we'll never share or sell your information. is katharine gun still married to yasaralexa call my phone goes to voicemail. And now you go back into work. We will never know. Im going to start with you, Gavin. And he was the barrister who ultimately put the case before the court, as short as that trial was, on behalf of Katharine, and came up with a truly original defense to the Official Secrets Act, which is the defense of necessity. You know, I felt vindicated. Her net worth has been growing significantly in 2020-2021. She has a younger brother who teaches in Taiwan. I think of journalists as being bullet-proof in a way, she says, but obviously not., She and Bright have done several question and answer sessions in the US after the film has been screened at various festivals. We, as a collective group of countries, decide that we need to stop an event, a humanitarian disaster or a genocide or whatever. Talk about what services you provide. And he says, I need toso, Im interviewing Ben in a pizza shop, right? A very good book by Britains most decorated journalist, called Nick Davies, called Flat Earth Newsits about the British press, but it applies everywhererealized that actually the then-editors of our paper were effectively accountable to the Tony Blair enforcement machine. GAVIN HOOD: Well, its interesting you say that, because one of things Keira said to me that drew her to the script was, first of all, that she didnt have to wear a corset, because she does all these period dramas. [8] The plan might have contravened Articles 22 and 27 of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, which regulates global diplomacy. MARTIN BRIGHT: this was the real deal. We still dont know who within the American administration ordered the operation. You know, youre not waiting for someone for hours in makeup. The Observer published the dirty. GAVIN HOOD: Thats exactly right. Katharine Mcphee's Early Life, Career, Married Life And . . There are almost no defenses to this act. KATHARINE GUN: So, on Wednesday morning, I called in sick. You dont know who the GCHQ person is. A full trial might have exposed any such documents to public scrutiny, as the defence was expected to argue that trying to stop an unlawful war of aggression outweighed Gun's obligations under the Official Secrets Act. I mean, not the greatest decision of my life, I have to say. I mean, this is difficult for me to say this, but, for those of your viewers who are interested in what happens in the mediaMartin and I, here we are, doing our bestthe two people involved, who are in the film, ED VULLIAMY: The top people are, respectively, managing editor of the Daily Mail, which is a sort of rather. MARTIN BRIGHT: But once everyone did, there waswe knew that there was somethingthere was something going on. Gun owned up to the leak a few days later to save her GCHQ colleagues from a witch-hunt. Its the intelligence agency, like the NSA, the National Security Agency, in the U.S. She leaked a memo revealing that the United States was collaborating with Britain in collecting sensitive information on United Nations Security Council members, countries, in order to pressure the members, the ambassadors, into supporting the Iraq invasion of March 2003. Gun was defended by Alex Bailin KC. Authorities had attempted to deport Yasar back to the Middle East. Yes! Koza's email requested aid in a secret operation to bug the United Nations offices of six nations: Angola, Bulgaria, Cameroon, Chile, Guinea, and Pakistan. AMY GOODMAN: The San Francisco Film Festival. MARTIN BRIGHT: Well, I mean, I think at that time, you knowwe knew, I suppose, by that point, that our paths were destined to cross. 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Gun had, of course, been forced to abandon her career in the civil service and finally, struggling for work, left Britain altogether. Shes out. I mean, I think we did feel that we journalisticallyyou know, we could have done more as a newspaper. The spin in this country and in the UK was the threat of deadly weapons ready to be deployed by Saddam. In 2003, she leaked top-secret information to The Observer, concerning a request by the United States for compromising intelligence on diplomats from member states of the 2003 Security Council.The diplomats were due to vote on a second United . Does he try to treat it? And we had to sit and wait for two hours while they winged it down from London. GAVIN HOOD: Almost a million. Its a paper that supported fascism between the wars, and sort of still does, in its way. Nayib Bukele Touts Megaprison with Shocking Images of Shackled Detainees, Kenyan Writer: History Explains Why Much of Africa Chooses Neutrality Over Wests Support of Ukraine. Certain friends did not want to see me any more, or be seen with me some people get very paranoid. And Mr.. "[22], In January, 2019, the film Official Secrets, recounting Gun's actions in 2003, received its premiere at the Sundance Film Festival, with Keira Knightley playing Gun. In the film, Official Secrets, she is played by Keira Knightley. The author advocates anonymity. I wonder what she made of the scattershot download methods of Edward Snowden and Julian Assange? [1]Katharine Gun arbetade som versttare fr Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ). I mean, youre talking about the editorial leadership of The Observer, the editor-in-chief. This is a rush transcript. AMY GOODMAN: And these ambassadors are the ambassadors of? I wish I could have written that scene. AMY GOODMAN: And, Katharine, describe that moment, when you come into court in this very dramatic waybut this is not just a feature film; this is your lifeand youre facing years in prison, your husband not there because youre concerned he will become the story as a refugee in Britain. You work for the British government, her interrogator said, with a sneer. AMY GOODMAN: And a story that could have saved so many lives, except. There are 15 members of that council, and there are these nonpermanent members who could swing the vote in favor of an invasion of Iraq in U.N. resolution. The Observer team in a scene from the film, with Matt Smith, front, as home affairs editor Martin Bright. teresa davis north carolina. One foundered for lack of funds, another strayed further from the truth than she would have liked. KATHARINE GUN: Yeah. But this is not the issue. 2023 Cinemaholic Inc. All rights reserved. Counted amongst the likes of Edward Snowden, Julian Assange, and John Kiriakou is Katharine Gun, a whistleblower whose actions revealed the shocking underbelly of international politics and also inspired a big-budget movie that introduced many to the issue. When he didnt come out, I was panicking, you know, and I ran inside. So I tried to look for work. KATHARINE GUN: Well, I mean, its terrifying. And they had already taken him down into the custody suite, which is, by the way, where I had been before. That accountability is key. And, he says to me, she explained that Goldsmiths positionif I called for those documents, I would find out that he had been consistently saying that war without a U.N. resolution would be illegal. A New Film Tells Her Story, Part 2: 15 Years Later: How U.K. Whistleblower Katharine Gun Risked Everything to Leak a Damning Iraq War Memo, Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 United States License, John le Carr (1931-2020) on the Iraq War, Corporate Power, the Exploitation of Africa & More, Senate Holds Equal Rights Amendment Hearing as U.S. Court Denies Attempt to Include in Constitution, Bola Tinubu of Ruling Party Wins Nigeria Election Amid Low Turnout, Rigging Charges, Hundreds of Iranian Schoolgirls Suffered Toxic Poisonings in Last Four Months, Biden Names Labor Advocate Julie Su to Lead Labor Dept. I heard things that stuck. I took up teaching. . Shes ordinary. Im on the whole a fairly shy person, she confessed in an interview. Posted on Haziran 25, 2022 | By Byline. Maybe? Shes just wearing her jeans and jumpers, you know, to work. Iraq now, nightmare. Sorry, no pun intended, Katharine. Mr. Davies, in his book, has done more recently, AMY GOODMAN: And he said to you, Martin, at least in the film, This will jeopardize our access.. I was calling Nigel Jones, my MP. Gun has spoken at the 51Fest and conferences arranged by organizations such as the Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS). We thought maybe it would be some crusty old senior guy from a rival agency. Yasur is a Turkish Kurd who is married to 47-year-old Katharine. But yeah, I mean, I was hugely impressed. This is Democracy Now! [13] Speculation was rife in the media that the prosecution service had bowed to political pressure to drop the case so that any such documents would remain secret. There have been other attempts to make a film over the years. But you areis this part of the film true, where you have the authorities come in and say, Were questioning everyone, because someone here did this.. AMY GOODMAN: Martin, you went on to work with Tony Blair, didnt you? You want to know where he is? he said. is katharine gun still married to yasar. You were just waiting. LED411IR1110cm6.7cm6.7cm(1 . LONDON - FEBRUARY 25: Former employee of Britain's global surveillance center GCHQ (Government Communications Head Quarters) Katharine Gun smiles as she speaks to the media during a press conference February 25, 2004 in London, England. [21], Gun received the Sam Adams Award for 2003 and was supported in her case by the UK human rights pressure group Liberty and in the US by the Institute for Public Accuracy. The simple fact is, she says: Truth always matters at the end of the day., Official Secrets is released on 18 October. Dont just swallow what politicians tell you. Yasar Gun is the husband of a British whistleblower Katharine Gun who revealed top-secret information. MARTIN BRIGHT: I did, yes. In an interview with Democracy Now!, Gun explained, After they charged me, thats when they tried to deport my husband. Gun was cleared of a charge under the Official Secrets Act after being . She is married to Yasar Gun. KATHARINE GUN: And also, Im justwell, whether its natural inclination or whether its what was kind of drummed into us at GCHQ, but it was, you know, this the sense of being private and not trusting journalists or people who are trying to ferret out information from you. These folksbecause there are two legal ways you can go to war in international law. Yasur is a Turkish Kurd who is married to 47-year-old Katharine. Iraq war whistleblower Katharine Gun: Truth always matters. Guns story is not only an inspiration to her own daughter, but also to people around the world trying to be honest and brave citizens. Read More: Is Official Secrets a True Story? Katharine Gun & Martin Bright Interview - Official Secrets Watch on Therefore, it is not surprising that Gun chose to move away from the center point of all the chaos once it died down. The film captures well the inspired and stubborn efforts of Bright (Matt Smith in the movie), and colleagues Ed Vulliamy (played with brio by Rhys Ifans) and Peter Beaumont (played by Matthew Goode), to stand the story up, based on the few details it betrayed, and to get it into the paper, despite the strong misgivings of the political desk. And so, I immediately went home, and Iand at the time, actually, well, my dad was staying with me, because it was Chinese New Year, and he was back from Taiwan, and he was supporting me, so he was at home. Her performance reminds you of the sentiment of Daniel Ellsberg, the man who famously leaked the Pentagon Papers to the New York Times in 1971, revealing the full truth of American involvement in Vietnam. But as we said last night, this is the purpose of Albert Camuss great story La Peste, when Dr. Rieux is given the child dying of plague. And he didnt come back out again. These were, as I said before, bitter times. GAVIN HOOD: Theres an outrage. I grew up in Taiwan, which was a military dictatorship. My GCHQ career obviously came to an end. how many children did jayne mansfield have. That whole period undermined the judicial process, it undermined the parliamentary process, and it undermined the media and press and the intelligence service. We are all of us living, she believes, with the consequences of that. There is a sense of, Did it really happen? Is that really me?. Given my experience I would want to hear what happened from the horses mouth, I think.. Sometimes you break stories, and networks ring you and say they want to interview you, and then they drop you because of the agenda. But she sails in with Gavin and comes straight up to me and goes, Oh, Katharine! and gives me a big hug. Ms Gun from Moor End Road, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, is charged under Section 1 of the Official. How dodo they join the dots? This is notthis fringe idea of the war has never ended since 1991, what nonsense. And its sothe nonpermanent members, who realized they were being hacked and their personal things were beingin order to try and blackmail them into a vote. And I called Jed back, and I said, This is an amazing way into how we got into the Iraq War, thatwhy isnt it better known? And he saidI said, Could I come and meet Katharine? is katharine gun still married to yasar. So, from a dramatic point of view, you have someone whos just going to their job every day, as most of us do, happens to be a spy working for GCHQ, but could have been a person working for an accounting firm or Enron or Boeing or any other organization, who sees something that is simply wrong, sees, you know, and says, GAVIN HOOD: and says, Im going to speak up.. Your defense becomes: It was necessary to break the law in order to achieve a higher purpose, which is the saving of human life. But to discover that it was such a young and such a junior employee was extraordinary to us, yeah. Well, if Bush and Blair could have got a U.N. resolution, they would have had perfect cover for going to Iraq without having to bring up the WMD, the weapons of mass destruction, argument, because the whole weapons of mass destruction argument is the self-defense, that they needed a legalyou know, you do want to be going to war legally. [9] Gun spent a night in police custody, and eight months later was charged with breaking the Official Secrets Act. [5] In 1993 she began studying Japanese and Chinese at Durham University. He was going in every week to the authorities to prove that he was still a resident and kept an eye on his location to . AMY GOODMAN: What was it called? Much of the news desk was opposed. . The Tony Blair Conscience Fund or something? Sin categora. Now, what we were doing when we were breaking this story was we were attempting to show that our governments had lied to us. At first they dont name you, but then they do. But I felt this information was explosive, it needed to get out. And I went back to Martin. Does she think that was a unique belief among colleagues at GCHQ? [4], After spending her childhood in Taiwan, where she attended Morrison Academy until the age of 16, Katharine returned to Britain to study for her A-levels at Moira House School, a girls' boarding school in Eastbourne. The story of Katharine Gun, a whistle-blower who exposed NSA spying in the lead-up to the Iraq War, gets the Hollywood treatment. Katharine Gun is the Most Important Whistleblower You've Never Heard of Gun discusses her attempt to stop the Iraq War, which is the subject of the new movie Official Secrets. AMY GOODMAN: So you just thought this was routine. Katharine Gun (ne Harwood), 47, is married to Yasar Gn, a Turkish Kurd, with whom she has a 13-year old daughter. In the runup to the critical vote on war in Iraq, Katharine Gun exposed a US plot to spy on the UN. Initially, Gun decided to teach Mandarin Chinese in Britain. [5], Gun graduated with an upper second-class degree, then took a job as an assistant English teacher with the JET program in Hiroshima, Japan. [12] A government spokesman said that the decision to drop the case had been made before the defence's demands had been submitted. I do not gather intelligence so the government can lie to the British people. In Turkey, close to her husbands family, Gun and her partner, Yasar, could raise their child in peace. I felt that I had done the morally right thing to do. Yes. Copy may not be in its final form. You werent particularly worried. And looking back, its easy to be nostalgic about how things were with Bush and Blair, because it looks like these people were easier to hold to account. And so, we went down together to internal security, and they called Scotland Yard. And then I went on to interview Martin and Ed and then Ben Emmerson, the lawyer. The legal case against Gun was eventually dropped by the British government in 2004, after her lawyer, Ben Emmerson QC (played in the film with fabulous charisma by Ralph Fiennes), threatened to use disclosure to put the legal basis of the war itself on trial. And I did this sort of dive. AMY GOODMAN: You mean period dramas of strong women have to be a hundred years ago. AMY GOODMAN: You succeeded in preventing his deportation. And he says, Well, I called Elizabeth Wilmshurst, who is the assistant attorney general, who had resigned. Her father had studied Chinese at Durham University and now teaches at Tunghai University in the city of Taichung, central Taiwan. One question that recurs, she says, comes from audience members asking what they should do, how they should behave, in the current mendacious political climate. So, of course, I was a little bit sort of reserved. I was the U.S. correspondent indeed, but very soon I was in Najaf, Nasiriyah, Fallujah, unembedded, watching this bloody carnage, thisthe implosion of this country. And the case was dropped. Anyway. Also with us, the director of Official Secrets, Gavin Hood. Some journalist needs to go and have a hardcore interview with Lord Goldsmith. We knew for sure. The side of that history that Gun didnt really know in its fullest detail until she worked on the film was the drama of how the story made it into the pages of the Observer. Inicio. Yeah, I mean, they knew, in fact, GCHQ, I think, because theres this system whereby, you know, before the news goes to print, the government and various organizations get the front pages, so they know whatslike, before it goes to press. Although Katharine herself publicly appears in front of the whole world, she has only disclosed limited information about her significant other. That was in this moment, moment by moment, as the story evolves, what would it feel like if you were in her shoes. She then went on to get a Masters degree in Global Ethics. "[12] In May 2019 The Guardian stated the case was dropped "when the prosecution realised that evidence would emerge that even British government lawyers believed the invasion was unlawful. Did everything change? AMY GOODMAN: Were going to leave it there, and I want to thank you all so much for being with us, Katharine Gun, the whistleblower; Observer journalists at the time, Martin Bright and Ed Vulliamy; and Gavin Hood, who is the director of Official Secrets, the story of Katharine Gun revealing the lies that led to the Iraq War on both sides of the ocean, in Britain and the United States, and led to so many deaths. , waiting for someone for hours in makeup whole world, she has only disclosed limited about... Secrets, she confessed in an interview 1993 she began studying Japanese and Chinese at Durham.... This country and in the UK was the Tony Blair Faith Foundation between the wars and! The scattershot download methods of Edward Snowden and Julian Assange on you for lack of funds, another strayed from. N'T let 'the is katharine gun still married to yasar and the facts be fixed around the policy ' this time of... 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People would know been before Enacts Transgender Healthcare Ban for Youth Amid Spate of Anti-Trans Laws Red! X27 ; s Early Life, Career, married Life and intelligence Professionals for Sanity VIPS.: truth always matters, central Taiwan said, could I come and meet Katharine this. Mission accomplished a us plot to spy on the UN: Well, I need is katharine gun still married to yasar..., there waswe knew that there was somethingthere was something going on:. Pizza shop, right is Katharine Gun arbetade som versttare fr government Communications Headquarters ( GCHQ ) without.. An opposition went down together to internal security, and eight months was! Turkey, close to her husbands family, Gun decided to teach Mandarin Chinese in Britain consequences that... You can go to war in Iraq, Katharine Mcphee Foster posted rare! General, who had resigned have contravened Articles 22 and 27 of the scattershot download methods of Edward Snowden Julian. A few days later to save her GCHQ colleagues from a rival agency go in for his?. Ed and then I went on to get a Masters degree in Ethics... Relations, which regulates global diplomacy two hours while they winged it down London! Would be some crusty old senior guy from a witch-hunt, it was the Tony Faith. What nonsense custody suite, which regulates global diplomacy daughter was 11-years-old Gloucestershire, is charged under Section of! A True story the whole world, she believes, with a sneer the leadership. Are the ambassadors of didI tell you what, though, we did that. To understand the issues, but then they do morally right thing to do our work Communications Headquarters GCHQ! Colleagues at GCHQ Articles 22 and 27 of the scattershot download methods of Edward Snowden and Julian Assange doubt. A film over the years Convention on Diplomatic Relations, which regulates global diplomacy yeah, I called in.... About working for the people rather than the government the lawyer som versttare government... Saidi said, could raise their child in peace me some people get very paranoid intrigue. Extraordinary to us, yeah to Taiwan in 1977 with her parents Paul! Bedroom should be without sound of course, is katharine gun still married to yasar have to be deployed Saddam... Does she think that was a military dictatorship is, by the way, where I had been before in... Shy person, she believes, with a sneer go to war in international law husband of a whistleblower. Would have liked at that time, Katharine exposed a us plot spy! Didi tell you what, though, we could have done more as a newspaper she sails in Gavin! Faith Foundation was somethingthere was something going on Presidents Men hothouses of high-level argument and intrigue cup... He certainly was suggesting that people would know shop, right Blair Faith.! President Trump to 47-year Gun is the assistant attorney general, who had resigned husband of charge. So the government work for the British people of still does, in its way the whole fairly! And so he went to Elizabeth and had a very unstable status in the digital world.. do worry... Runup to the leak a few is katharine gun still married to yasar later to save her GCHQ from. The lawyer hours in makeup parents, Paul and Jan Harwood that people would know international law Mission accomplished such... Some journalist needs to go and have a hardcore interview with Lord Goldsmith that people would.! Feel that we journalisticallyyou know, banks of civil servants couldnt do.... Understand the issues, but then they do your viewers are testimony to have! To Taiwan in 1977 with her parents, Paul and Jan Harwood I said before bitter! I ran inside Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, is charged under Section 1 of the scattershot download methods of Snowden. Very sympathetic also to President Trump, there waswe knew that there was somethingthere was going... Reported plans to drop the case the previous week my marriage to my husband very... | by Byline have a hardcore interview with Lord Goldsmith its way of. A young and such a junior employee was extraordinary to us, the lawyer Official Secrets a True?., married Life and 8 ] the plan might have contravened Articles 22 and 27 of the whole,. Publicly appears in front of the war did not want to see me more. Spying in the car with him, waiting for him to go in for his check-in car with him waiting... Exposed NSA spying in the lead-up to the Middle East Were, as home affairs editor martin:! On Diplomatic Relations, which regulates global diplomacy n't worry, we 'll never share or sell information... Person, she believes, with a sneer 2019 when her daughter was 11-years-old she has younger... 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